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	<title>Comments on: Biofuels hit the wall</title>
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	<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/</link>
	<description>Commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 15:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Tony Edwards</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2149</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2149</guid>
		<description>Jay, the entry in the Open Choke blog
http://openchoke.blogs.com/open_choke/2007/09/mo-comparisons.html
gives a good description of the energy imbalance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, the entry in the Open Choke blog<br />
<a href="http://openchoke.blogs.com/open_choke/2007/09/mo-comparisons.html" rel="nofollow">http://openchoke.blogs.com/open_choke/2007/09/mo-comparisons.html</a><br />
gives a good description of the energy imbalance.</p>
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		<title>By: jpm100</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2046</link>
		<dc:creator>jpm100</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2046</guid>
		<description>Brazil seems to still be going strong with their efforts.  Brazil may be in a unique situation due to their sugarcane industry, but so are we as well in some places.   

Also I find it funny that gas companies have had no problem making money cutting my gas with alcohol for decades (this was even before MTBE elimination).  Yet when I go to use it as a main source, its too impractical to use.  

Even though it may ultimately only satisfy a small segment of fuel consumption, there is still good reason for us to diversify our energy sources.  Diversity will offset the volatility and dependence (aka gouging) that happen by using a single primary energy source.  There are very few practical ones out there.  Nuclear and ethanol are about the only real things we can add to oil and coal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brazil seems to still be going strong with their efforts.  Brazil may be in a unique situation due to their sugarcane industry, but so are we as well in some places.   </p>
<p>Also I find it funny that gas companies have had no problem making money cutting my gas with alcohol for decades (this was even before MTBE elimination).  Yet when I go to use it as a main source, its too impractical to use.  </p>
<p>Even though it may ultimately only satisfy a small segment of fuel consumption, there is still good reason for us to diversify our energy sources.  Diversity will offset the volatility and dependence (aka gouging) that happen by using a single primary energy source.  There are very few practical ones out there.  Nuclear and ethanol are about the only real things we can add to oil and coal.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2033</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-2033</guid>
		<description>consider the potential energy in a barrel of oil..what amount of Palm oil would need to be produced to obtain an equivalent amount of potential energy?  you would also have to consider the amount of energy required to get to the oil, extract it and refine it 
compare this to the process required to obtain a like amount of energy from Palm oil (or any other bio fuel) just a question  i have no clue   can you put the same amount of effort into bio fuels as you would fossil fuels and realize the same results???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>consider the potential energy in a barrel of oil..what amount of Palm oil would need to be produced to obtain an equivalent amount of potential energy?  you would also have to consider the amount of energy required to get to the oil, extract it and refine it<br />
compare this to the process required to obtain a like amount of energy from Palm oil (or any other bio fuel) just a question  i have no clue   can you put the same amount of effort into bio fuels as you would fossil fuels and realize the same results???</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>I was checking around the web yesterday for complete home solar kits, upwards of $30 grand. Why are things with no moving parts so expensive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was checking around the web yesterday for complete home solar kits, upwards of $30 grand. Why are things with no moving parts so expensive?</p>
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		<title>By: 13times</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1978</link>
		<dc:creator>13times</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1978</guid>
		<description>Just a couple years ago there was a lot of buzz surrounding a new nano-printing technology where solar cells could be printed onto nearly any type of substrate - not sure where the technology stands now but it did look promising.

Maybe an X-Prize contest for a cheap nano-printed 4x8 solar panel retrofit kit. No battery storage, just send the power directly to the household power utility box. If the kit can be produced for $3000 and be simple enough for weekend warriors to install then it might just work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a couple years ago there was a lot of buzz surrounding a new nano-printing technology where solar cells could be printed onto nearly any type of substrate - not sure where the technology stands now but it did look promising.</p>
<p>Maybe an X-Prize contest for a cheap nano-printed 4&#215;8 solar panel retrofit kit. No battery storage, just send the power directly to the household power utility box. If the kit can be produced for $3000 and be simple enough for weekend warriors to install then it might just work.</p>
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		<title>By: scott47</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1977</link>
		<dc:creator>scott47</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1977</guid>
		<description>I for one, am a big supporter of alternative fuels.  If we can find a way to clean up the earth, we should do so.  It would be great to have a cleaner environment for our future and our children.  Check out my blog if you need any web reviews
http://scott47.wordpress.com/
All the reviews I provide are for free, on any web product =]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I for one, am a big supporter of alternative fuels.  If we can find a way to clean up the earth, we should do so.  It would be great to have a cleaner environment for our future and our children.  Check out my blog if you need any web reviews<br />
<a href="http://scott47.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://scott47.wordpress.com/</a><br />
All the reviews I provide are for free, on any web product =]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1970</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1970</guid>
		<description>I recall many years ago some prominent authors claiming we'd all be starving by the 1990s because agricultural output couldn't keep up with demand for food.  Seems like people aren't starving these days from a shortage of food, but because of disgusting political situations they happen to be stuck in.  Now we're all supposed to be forever hooked on oil because there's not enough corn in the world.

Prices are &lt;i&gt;supposed&lt;/i&gt; to rise and fall to allocate resources to their most valued ends, and to increase the potential returns in respective industries to attract more investment to increase supply.  We didn't die of starvation due to food shortages.  Something tells me to the extent biofuels can take over for petroleum, they will, and will do so with minimal fuss and as always happens in the economy, in those areas where the benefits of using them outweigh the benefits of using fossil fuels.

Thinking in terms of replacing fossil fuels on a one for one basis, and pointing to current shortages based on what &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; be demanded in the future, simply belies an ignorance of how the world economy actually functions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall many years ago some prominent authors claiming we&#8217;d all be starving by the 1990s because agricultural output couldn&#8217;t keep up with demand for food.  Seems like people aren&#8217;t starving these days from a shortage of food, but because of disgusting political situations they happen to be stuck in.  Now we&#8217;re all supposed to be forever hooked on oil because there&#8217;s not enough corn in the world.</p>
<p>Prices are <i>supposed</i> to rise and fall to allocate resources to their most valued ends, and to increase the potential returns in respective industries to attract more investment to increase supply.  We didn&#8217;t die of starvation due to food shortages.  Something tells me to the extent biofuels can take over for petroleum, they will, and will do so with minimal fuss and as always happens in the economy, in those areas where the benefits of using them outweigh the benefits of using fossil fuels.</p>
<p>Thinking in terms of replacing fossil fuels on a one for one basis, and pointing to current shortages based on what <i>might</i> be demanded in the future, simply belies an ignorance of how the world economy actually functions.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip_B</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1966</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip_B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1966</guid>
		<description>The issue with biofuels is not whether technology x or y is viable or superior, it's where as a pratical matter do biofuels actually come from and what is their impact.

You need to be aware that, like renewable energy which is overwhelmingly hydroelectric despite what you may hear, currently biofuels are mainly landfill gas. So any numbers you may hear about biofuel supply are misleading and even deceptive.

Having said that, biofuels supply can be increased in two ways. One is to process otherwise 'waste' bio-materials into fuel. This is superficially attractive until you understand that there is far less of this waste than you are led to believe and other initiatives, such as recycling, have had a major impact on the supply of waste and hence their availability as biofuels. landfill gas for example, is largely a legacy of earlier more wasteful times.

In summary, the biofuel potential in waste is both less than you are led to believe and rapidly runs into finite supply and economic competition with other uses.

Which leaves new supply as the source of biofuels, which is where the real problem is. New supply of bio-materials can only come from land not currently utilized to supply food or other bio-materials, or from more intensive agriculture. And bear in mind that demand for food is rapidly increasing driven by increasing populations and affluence.

Bringing 'new land' into production necessarily takes it away from some other use. Most of those uses will be more or less natural ecosystems although not necessarily pristine. And in our globalized world it will happen far from where we see the impact. In the same way developed countries have become 'clean and green' by exporting their polluting industries to place where they  pollute far more, biofuels will be sourced from natural environments in the developing world, bulldozed to make land available to produce biofuels for western demand.

I happened to have travelled through one of the biggest palm oil plantations in Asia. Palm oil is booming as it is a prime source of biofuels. These plantations are huge. The one I saw was several hundred square kilometers. A few years earlier it had been mostly undeveloped tropical rainforest. Now it was uninterrupted monoculture. An ecological disaster.

As we drove through the plantation, my driver said that a couple of weeks earlier he had seen a dead tiger beside the road. I asked, was it hit by a vehicle? He replied, that it might have been, but it was all skin and bone and was clearly dying of starvation. Starving predators come to roads because they find roadkill carrion there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue with biofuels is not whether technology x or y is viable or superior, it&#8217;s where as a pratical matter do biofuels actually come from and what is their impact.</p>
<p>You need to be aware that, like renewable energy which is overwhelmingly hydroelectric despite what you may hear, currently biofuels are mainly landfill gas. So any numbers you may hear about biofuel supply are misleading and even deceptive.</p>
<p>Having said that, biofuels supply can be increased in two ways. One is to process otherwise &#8216;waste&#8217; bio-materials into fuel. This is superficially attractive until you understand that there is far less of this waste than you are led to believe and other initiatives, such as recycling, have had a major impact on the supply of waste and hence their availability as biofuels. landfill gas for example, is largely a legacy of earlier more wasteful times.</p>
<p>In summary, the biofuel potential in waste is both less than you are led to believe and rapidly runs into finite supply and economic competition with other uses.</p>
<p>Which leaves new supply as the source of biofuels, which is where the real problem is. New supply of bio-materials can only come from land not currently utilized to supply food or other bio-materials, or from more intensive agriculture. And bear in mind that demand for food is rapidly increasing driven by increasing populations and affluence.</p>
<p>Bringing &#8216;new land&#8217; into production necessarily takes it away from some other use. Most of those uses will be more or less natural ecosystems although not necessarily pristine. And in our globalized world it will happen far from where we see the impact. In the same way developed countries have become &#8216;clean and green&#8217; by exporting their polluting industries to place where they  pollute far more, biofuels will be sourced from natural environments in the developing world, bulldozed to make land available to produce biofuels for western demand.</p>
<p>I happened to have travelled through one of the biggest palm oil plantations in Asia. Palm oil is booming as it is a prime source of biofuels. These plantations are huge. The one I saw was several hundred square kilometers. A few years earlier it had been mostly undeveloped tropical rainforest. Now it was uninterrupted monoculture. An ecological disaster.</p>
<p>As we drove through the plantation, my driver said that a couple of weeks earlier he had seen a dead tiger beside the road. I asked, was it hit by a vehicle? He replied, that it might have been, but it was all skin and bone and was clearly dying of starvation. Starving predators come to roads because they find roadkill carrion there.</p>
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		<title>By: davidcobb</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1965</link>
		<dc:creator>davidcobb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1965</guid>
		<description>Wave pumped reverse osmosis making the deserts bloom with jatropa and algae ponds.  These technologies exist  and it's not so much cost as not enough profit margin.  AGW may be bullocks, but the arabs are not computer generated.  We must find alternatives for this reason alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wave pumped reverse osmosis making the deserts bloom with jatropa and algae ponds.  These technologies exist  and it&#8217;s not so much cost as not enough profit margin.  AGW may be bullocks, but the arabs are not computer generated.  We must find alternatives for this reason alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Moore</title>
		<link>http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1963</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/biofuels-hit-the-wall/#comment-1963</guid>
		<description>Some people just refuse to learn.

I remember reading articles and essays 30 years ago that pointed out the problems with bio-whatever that folks are now "discovering".

Sheesh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people just refuse to learn.</p>
<p>I remember reading articles and essays 30 years ago that pointed out the problems with bio-whatever that folks are now &#8220;discovering&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sheesh!</p>
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